Wizman

就算要走到地獄，我也要去 |專訪kitty女士（上）

Kitty Chopaka是長期活躍著的泰國大麻運動家、鬥士，為推進大麻法案和推進公眾的大麻教育付出了很多的努力以及做出貢獻。

除此之外，她也是大麻創業者，“Chopaka”（经过许可的大麻店和泰国FDA批准的萜烯软糖）的创始人、所有者和推广者。

Kitty Chopaka is a long-standing and active cannabis activist and fighter in Thailand, dedicating significant efforts and contributions to advancing cannabis legislation and public education on cannabis. In addition to her advocacy work, she is also an entrepreneur and the founder, owner, and promoter of "Chopaka" (Licensed cannabis shop and ThaiFDA approved terpene flavoured gummy).

“Q&A”

🎤😁🦸🏻‍♀️

作為大麻活動家活躍了多長時間，如何走上這條路？

How long have you been active as a marijuana activist and how did you get started?

從2017年開始成為大麻活動家，從那時我開始除了与家人和朋友之外的人聊大麻。所以這算是一個開始。我加入了活動家組織，想要幫忙，然後開始參加會議、研討會等等。一開始僅僅作為參與者，然後慢慢地自然的更多地參與其中。這個過程我不知道怎麼說，就是很有趣，我想要知道更多，學習更多，想要知道為什麼，為什麼大麻不合法。

Since I would say starting July 2017. Yes. That was when I decided my starting point because that day was I talked to other people outside of my family or my friends about cannabis.

So, and that was just kind of how I got started. It was a stumble then fall and I still haven't managed to get out. So, from then was reaching out to an activist group and just wanted to help and then started going to meetings like, you know, seminars as an attendee, as a participant. And then it just kind of ended up being more involved because I don't know, it was just like, it was quite interesting. I wanted to learn more. I want to know more. I want to know why. Why it's illegal. Why it's illegal. Yeah.

所以，你從大麻中獲得了好處？

So, you have the benefit from the cannabis.

我是一個使用者，但我會說我更從商業的角度來看待它。當商業不能回答我的問題，我就從其他的角度去觀察它。我想要更加的理解它。

為什麼一個有很多需求，高價格的東西，但是人們不能獲益？為什麼讓它發生不可行？在旅程中我在尋找這個為什麼的答案。合法化是個趨勢。作為一個創業者，我總是在尋找新的東西。這是個新的生意，新的產業，然後我又是個使用者，所以為什麼不呢？

I'm a user, but like I would say that I was looking at it more in business. And then when the business didn't answer the question, I looked at it in other ways. I want to understand more.

Like, how is it that something that seems to have a lot of demand, high price, but you're not really making any profit? Or why is it not feasible to make it work? And I, and within the journey, I slowly find as to why. I'm a user. And then like, and then legalization were happening all over the world. So, it was a trend, obviously. And because of that trend, it was a new innovative thing.

I, as an entrepreneur, always constantly looking for something new. And this is the new industry, new blow up. And hey, I as a user, why not?

為什麼要做這件事情，而不僅僅是一個普通的參與者，店鋪經營者？這個包括了更多的工作，和政府打交道之類的。

Why do this thing, not just an ordinary participant, a store operator?

為什麼不呢？你會發現作為一個使用者，我不能說我是個醫療用途的患者者，還是個休閒用途的使用者。這根據不同的時間，不同的情況會發生改變。 有一天是醫療用途，有一天會是休閒用途。就算是一天裡，目的也會發生改變。可能早上是醫療用途，晚上是休閒樂。反之亦然，所以就讓我們這麼說吧，我就是個使用者。

Why not? You will find that. As a user, I can't say that whether I'm a patient or I as a recreational user. It's different time of days, different day of weeks. One day will be for recreational, one day is medical. Or within one day, maybe the morning is medical and the evening is recreational. Or vice versa. So, let's just say that I'm a user.

為什麼做這件事呢，因為這件事情很有趣，又沒有其他的人在做這個事。而我又剛好有這個能力來在之間來幫助不同群體之間交流，所以，看起來我比其他的人有更多的信息渠道。如果我有更多的渠道，但我又沒有足夠的知識來讓信息合理利用，所以我需要將信息傳遞給更加有知識的人。然後我們才可以討論這件事，有點像是這個樣子。

對我來說，信息和知識應該總是免費的分享，而且應該是真實的信息，應該經過了科學證明，是真實有效的。

And why? Because it seems really interesting. No one else was doing it. I happen to have the ability to communicate in different languages as well. So, it seems like I have more access to information than other people. If I have more access, but at the same time, if I don't have the knowledge to make sense of that information, I need to pass that on to someone who does. And then we can talk about it. So, it's just kind of like that.

And to me, information knowledge should always be shared freely. And it should be the truth. And it should be scientifically proven. It should have real and truthfulness in it.

至於為什麼，i dont bloody know。我還生活在這裡，我不喜歡看到不公平\不公正，不喜歡看到這些差距。不喜歡看到有些人有，有些人沒有。我不喜歡看到腐敗正在蠶食我們的國家。加在一起，大麻需要被合法化，以及去污名化。對於大麻使用者的污名依然存在著，我們正在為之努力。"因為他們抽大麻，他們是吸毒者，他們會接著使用海洛因....”

As to why? I don't bloody know. I'm still in here. I don't like seeing unfair. I don't like, you know, unfairness. I don't like seeing the disparity. How there's a difference between those who has and those who has not. I don't like how corruption is eating our country. And all of those happens to be the same thing that has to be fought for the cannabis to be legalized. And destigmatization. The stigma that's still there, we're still working on it. “ Oh, because they use cannabis, they are a druggy. Or they're going to use heroin.”

如何推進除罪化|合法化進程？請願書？遊行？

How to promote decriminalization|legalization process? petition? Protest?

就是通過參與其中，做那些沒人做的事情，通過傳遞信息，從那些掌握信息的人到需要信息的人。這中間有很多的遊說工作，但我沒有通過金錢，我用知識來遊說。因為有時候知識被金錢更加值錢和有價值。

Like, by participating. By being there when no one would. By transferring the knowledge from those who has it to those who needs it. It's a lot of lobbying, but I don't have the money. I lobby with knowledge. Because sometimes knowledge is more expensive or more valuable than money itself.

遇到什麼樣的阻力？家人？警察？公眾認知？哪裡的阻力是最大的？如何解決？

What kind of resistance did you encounter? family? police? public perception? Where is the greatest resistance? How to solve?

家人們都很支持我。我的孩子，我的丈夫，我的父母，都很支持我。你知道，你的背後需要有群眾的支持。

但我發現公共認知是最大的阻力，公眾的認知有時候很貶低人的，很嚴苛的。但這同時說明了他們很害怕，我不能因此對他們感到生氣，因為他們只是對他們不知道的事情感到恐懼。

你只能持續給他們更多的知識，直到有一天他們自己要求了解更多。因為你不同逼別人去學什麼，這需要有個時機他們覺得哦我需要知道關於這個的知識。當別人需要的時候給別人知識或許更加重要，而不是強迫別人說你需要知道這個你需要知道那個。你越是逼人們做什麼事情，人們越不會做什麼事情。

Yeah, family are very supportive. My children, my husband.

My mom, my dad. Like, you know, I kind of slowly moved them towards my side. Ah. So like, you know, you need to have a village behind you.

But I find that public perception sometimes can be quite demeaning. Like, you know, it's really harsh sometimes.

But at the same time, it only shows that they are afraid. And I can't be angry with them. Because they are only afraid of what they don't know. And...

You can only give them more knowledge. Constantly. Until they do eventually require them. Because you can't force people into learning about something.

There would need to be a time and a place where it's like, Oh, I need to know about this. Having that information there when they need it is probably more important than forcing them into like, No, you need to learn about this. Or you need to know about that. Like... The more you force people into doing something, the more they don't do it.

如何讓自己持續保持熱情和動力，如何安排時間？因為這不是一個輕鬆的工作，你還有家庭已經很多事情做，你不覺得累嗎？

How to keep yourself enthusiasm and motivated, because this is not an easy job?

我有那種奇怪的癡迷，當我在這種癡迷的狀態中時，我會走到世界的盡頭，找到我需要找到的東西。就算是要走到地獄，我也要去。如果我要知道什麼，我就要知道，因為我想要知道。就是很癡迷。 I have that weird obsession. And when I'm on a weird obsession run, I will go into the ends of the earth to find what I need to find. Like you know, just... Until, go down to hell if it goes down there. Like you know, I will... If I want to know something, I will find it. Because I want to know. Like a very obsessive...

同時我不覺得累，所有的事情都是平衡的，家庭、工作、關係對我來說都是平衡的。我們之間會開放的交流，我們確保事情完成，但不是以那種日程表的形式。

But at the same time, I don't feel tired. Everything's balanced out in our own way. How we manage our family, my work, my relationship, is... We talk about things. We very openly discuss stuff. And... We try with making sure that... Things get dealt with. So it's nothing routine.

我以一種奇怪的方式工作，我六點開始，午夜之後才結束。在這之間，我會給孩子做晚飯，或許在做飯的時候打工作電話。我可以同時做多項任務，但所有這些事情都給我帶來快樂，我很快樂，所以不會感到累。

I work in a very weird way. It pretty much starts at 6am and then I finish at almost midnight.

But in between. Like I will cook my kids dinner. I may be on the phone while I'm cooking my kids dinner. Or I would be like... I'll be doing so many things all at once. But all of those things bring me joy. I'm very happy. And it doesn't tire me out.

唯一讓我感到累的事情是，那些我無法控制的事情。比如說政策、經濟走勢，這些事情我無法控制。其他的事情我很享受，所以不會累。

The only thing that usually tires me out is the things that I can't control. Which is like politics and like you know, how the economy is going. You can't control those things. But everything else I do, I really enjoy. So it doesn't get tiring.

所以你不會因為工作感到疲憊，因為你很享受。 So you don't need to force yourself to work because you enjoy it.

是的，我享受早上起床，開始期待今天我要試什麼花。這是每天的開始，然後我開始關心我們新的產品，最近我們在用大麻烘焙咖啡，我會品嘗大麻咖啡。這些都是很有趣的事情，不會讓我不想工作。然後我可能回去農場，have a tour 看看別人有什麼問題，我是否可以幫助。然後還有很多抗議，我參加了很多的抗議。然後我會和國家上的人開會，學習政策之類的事情。我的每天都不會是一樣，你永遠不知道明天會發生什麼，所有很有趣。

當要處理純粹商業上的事情時，我會切斷與外在的聯繫，專心處理。一般來說是3天左右在半個月裡。

Yeah, like you wake up in the morning and I'm like, okay, so what flowers am I trying out today? That's like the start of my day. And then it's like, what product are we doing? Lately we've been roasting cannabis. Roasting coffee with cannabis. So we've been making coffee cannabis and we've been tasting that. Does that sound fun? Or sound really boring and like you don't want to work? It's all kind of really cool. And then I may go and visit some farms. And we'll have a talk as to like, oh how's things going? What type of problems do you have? Let's see if I can help with anything. And then like, you know,

there will be a protest. And I'll turn up at a protest. Or I'll be on meetings with people internationally who are like doing policies and things like that. So it's my day. My day to day is never the same.

And because of that, you'll never know what's going to happen tomorrow. So it's quite fun. But still, there's still like the whole business things that you have to do. But that's usually the time when there'll be times when I disappear from social media.

And that's usually like for about three days to a week. And I'll just be working. And those times will be like I'll cut off most meetings and what not to just produce work to then continue with the cycle. So it's quite fun. And I think that's the thing to continue with the cycle.

作為女性，在這個過程中處境，是否會被區別對待？

As a woman, will she be treated differently in this process, and will she have to work harder?

絕對的。通常要麼你是一個在全是男人的房間裡的唯一的女人；要麼雖然還有其他的女人，但這些女人都是處於一個工作地位相對比較低的位置。通常我不會被放在讓那個分類中，我會說我在兩個群體的中間跳躍和切換。

Definitely. Yeah. Usually you're either the only woman in a room full of men or the only woman in a room full of men and women but the other women are in a lower than the men. While I would not be put in that category, I would say jump in between the two different segments and groups.

但是總體來說，很多問題不是來自國家內部，而是外國，尤其是那些從美國或者其他地方來的OG。我可以感受到，他們不認為女人知道些什麼。是的我不期望我什麼都知道，我也願意像他們學習，但是沒有必要認為我們一無所知，甚至基本的嘗試都不知道。沒有必要高高在上的說話，沒有必要對我們更慢的說話。

But overall, a lot of the problem tends to not come from the inside the country but more from outside the country. Especially like the OGs of say the United States? Or the other side. I feel that it's because they don't think that a woman could know. Yeah. But I don't expect to be a know-it-all. I like to learn more from them but there is no point of expecting or think that we have no basic. Like you know, there's no need to talk down upon us. There's no need to talk slower. There's no need to use in vocab to make you sound more like you know what you're doing.

尤其沒有必要告訴我我有多好看，我自己知道我有多好看，而且這個行為非常的creepy。 他們會說，你做的真好啊kitty，blahblahblah，還有你好漂亮。我就呃，為什麼這個事情需要被說出來呢。（why does that fucking matter！）你長得帥不帥，這不應該重要，為什麼和其他男人聊得都是和主題的相關話題，為什麼到了我就是漂亮，或者試著教會這個女孩什麼。

快得了吧，朋友。

And especially there's no need to tell me how beautiful I am. I know exactly how beautiful I am. And that is very creepy. Like they say, Oh, they go, oh yeah, you're doing such a great job, Kitty, blah blah blah. And then you're so beautiful. And I'm like, um... What does it matter to the... Yeah! Why does it fucking matter? You look handsome. It shouldn't matter. Why is it the topic that other men talks about is the topic of the conversation? Why when it's me, it's things that are visual or trying to teach that girl something. Ah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Come on, guys.

我會說這是個有趣的故事，我有一次在歐洲，我在一個會議上，作為一個獨立的活動家，我在談論關於如何我在泰國，我在做什麼，我如何在推廣安全和負責任的使用大麻，我是個母親，我如何在乎孩子們不去獲取他們還不能獲取的東西。

This is a funny story, I would say. I was in Europe. I was at a commission meeting or a conference. And I was the independent advocate. And I was talking about how I was in Thailand, what I do, how I promote safe and responsible use that ，I as a mother also really care about making sure that the children don't have access to it, to things they shouldn't have.

最後的走向變成了，因為他們認為我25歲（為此我很高興，因為幾年後我就四十了），因為我有兩個孩子，孩子11歲了，所以他們就認為我是個青少年母親。由於又在做大麻政策相關的事情，所以就青少年、成癮、未婚懷孕的故事就在他們頭腦中浮現。但是我結婚了，有兩個孩子。而且我把孩子們照顧的很好，他們去了好的學校。我有收入，但是那些偏見總會在那，當你是個女人的時候。

But it ended up being that because they thought I was 25, which is great, like the fact they thought I was 25, I was like, yay! I'm closer to... In a few years, I'll be 40.

I have two children. And it was under a marriage. Because they think, oh, you're 25, you have two kids. How old are your kids? 11. Oh, my God. And then they think that you're a teenage mom, and you do drug advocacy now, so obviously, teenage, addict, have two kids, and single.

But I'm married. I have two children. I support them. They go to a good school. We have income. Like, you know, it's like, hey! The judgment is always there when you're a female.

當你是女人的時候，他們覺得你很easy，他們可以接觸你，可以摸你，但他們知道你是母親的時候，就覺得你更easy了，還是個壞母親。他們就是不能相信，你可以把自己的生活安排的很好。最後當他們知道我是個妻子之後，他們的問題就是，你的丈夫允許你做這件事嗎? 每個人都問，你的丈夫如何看待你，他是否抽麻？我說不，我們在完全不同的行業，無論我做什麼，他完全支持我，這根本不是一個問題。他們就是反應很大，哦天啊她有丈夫；哦天啊她有孩子；哦天啊一切事情都是OK的，居然還沒有保姆。

And when they know you're a mother. So from being female, they think that you're easy, that they can access you, they can touch you, And then when they know that you're a mother, then it's like, you're even easier than a bad mother. They just cannot believe you handle your life very well. And also, when they found out that I am a wife, they asked me the question of, does your husband allow you to do this? Like, you know, how does your husband feel about this? Does he smoke? And it's like, no, he doesn't. He's in a totally different in industry. He fully supports whatever I do. And does it matter? So it's like, there's always a question of, how does your husband allow you to do this? You just, you know, we don't even know half the time that you have a husband, unless we go over. And then they see, like, oh shit, she does have kids. Oh shit, she does have a husband. And everything is fine. Without a nanny.

你認為女人是否需要更加努力，才能獲得和男人同樣的尊重？

So, like, do you think, like, women have to work harder in this industry to get the same respect as the man?

我認為女人需要更加努力，在大部分的行業中。泰國情況還是比較好的，我們有最多的女性CEO，尤其是金融行業，很多銀行的CEO都是女士。 我的確希望大麻行業是其中一個，女人能做很好的決定。我感覺如果這個行業都局限是男的，我們會損失很多的好產品。

I think women has to work harder in most industries. Thailand, hopefully, they'll be more accepting. But, I don't know. I think they'll be more accepting. Because we always had one of the highest rates of women CEO in the country. Especially in the finance industry. A lot of the banks, the CEOs are ladies. And I do hope that cannabis is one of those industries where we're on the mark. Or at least, like, show other industries that there's more women with imposition than men. Because I feel that if it's only limiting to men within this industry, we're missing out on a lot more products.

比如说，你知道，不是每個人都想要high high，整個臉都是stone的狀態。一直這樣一點都不合理。

Like, you know, like, not everyone wants to get, like, high, high. Yeah. And then, like, stone out of their face. Yeah So, none of that makes sense.

有什麼建議給女性大麻創業者，以便她們能夠應對於男性同行的性別歧視？

Any advice for female cannabis entrepreneurs so they can deal with the sexism of their male counterparts。

更多的學習。一直學習，我知道女性有時候會更加執著，運用這種能力來學習，學習學習，直到你能回答所有的事情。

learn more about it. Like, learn, learn, learn about it to the point that you can, I know that ladies can be quite obsessive. So, like, use that power and learn as much as you can about it. You'll be able to answer back anything.

最後，如果你不是要像男人售賣，就沒有必要向他們證明什麼。所以你需要想清楚，誰是你的people，然後為他們工作，和他們一起成長。永遠不要向不是你的消費者群體去銷售什麼。這只是浪費時間。

And at the end of the day, if you're not selling to men, then what's the point of proving to them? So, maybe you have to figure out who are your people and then work on those people and then grow it from there. Don't ever try to sell something to someone who are not your customer. It's just a waste of time.

我感覺在這個行業裡，人們更願意和男人交談，尤其是重要的事情。

I feel like when going out, like, in this industry, they more want to speak to the men. They don't speak the important thing to the women.

是的！所以要自己一個人去，這是我所做的。我不在和我的丈夫一起參加行業活動，再也不會，我曾經做過幾次，結果人們都和他說話，然後他會說你們要和她說，因為我不在這個行業，我不接觸這些東西，和她說。然後他就走開了。

Oh, yeah. Yes. Go alone. That's what I did.

I don't even go to industry events with my husband. Ever. I've done that a few times. And it's like, they talk to him and he goes, you need to talk to her. Because I don't touch it. I don't know this stuff. Talk to her. And then he'll walk away.

我現在都自己一個人去，當你自己一個人去的時候，人們的意識也會轉變。他們覺得你是個女人，還一個人，就會更加照顧你，認為你是個朋友，一個姐妹来拜访。所以，就是会完全不一樣的感受。因為有時候你知道，當我和種植者去開會的時候，當只有男人在場時，他們會有尿尿比賽，比誰有更大的.........對，所以，當一個女人出現在那裡的時候，他們就：哦，我們不能做這件事情了。那......額，你想看看我種的花嗎？哈哈哈哈哈

So, I go alone. And I find that by going alone you have a different mentality. So the people think of you as like, because you're a woman alone, they do tend to look after you more. Or they think of you as a friend. Like, you know, a sister to come and visit. So it's a different feel. Because sometimes, you know, the problem with doing my trips and meeting growers sometimes is that if it's men with men and you know, they have a pissing contest you know, like who has a bigger... Yeah. So why, when you put the throw a woman in there, they're like, oh, we can't do that. So, you wanna see my flowers?

你的身分可以如何協助本土的品牌店家解決哪些商業上的問題？

How can your identity help local brand stores solve commercial problems?

我通過分享信息來幫助，像一個大姐姐一樣，通過協助、建議、如何工作，如果種植，但是他們必須自己去做。

I help by sharing information. I help by being like a big sister. Be advising. Like advising and consulting the businesses. How to

work, how to grow. But they have to do it themselves.

我們支持本地大麻，我們的花只來自于本地。我們花的收入，65%回到農場，確認他們有收入。還有我們確保大家都是合法收入，經過登記和上稅。如果他們有登記的問題，我們會幫助他們。

And I have more than a few of those that we do support and also we support a lot of local. Our products only come from local. We actually worked out that for the flowers, our income for all of our income 65% goes out to the farms. So like we make sure that they have income but also they receive it legal money. So meaning like tax are paid on it. Everything is registered. Everything is like all proper and if they have not registered, we help them to get the things that they need.

對政府、政策的建議。

what's the proposal for the government and the policy maker?

現在，我們又重新開始做去年的工作，再次寫新的法案。這很愚蠢，但我們還是必須去做。因為我已經做了太多次了，所以開始變得不好玩了，開始有些煩人了。所以，我們還是會再做一遍，我們會巡迴泰國，做公眾意見的宣傳和調查。希望當選舉之後，新的政府成立，我們已經準備好了足夠完善的法案，讓政府接手接入,可以提交議會，可以重新辯論。但不要再多了，因為這事兒已經做過四五次了。

Right now we're doing it all over again since last year. Which is we're writing the act again which is stupid. The fact that we have to do like I've done it so many times it's not funny now. It's getting annoying. So we're doing it again. We're going to go all through Thailand and have public opinion of it and hopefully by the time election comes into place the government goes in. We then give this ready law to go into the government to go into parliament to then hopefully get re-deliberated but like not so much because it's been done like four or five times already.

你認為大麻還有可能再次非法嗎？

Is it possible cannabis becoming illegal again ?

在泰國沒有不可能。但是我認為不會再回頭了，我們不能再回頭了，因為各行業都在向前走。所以當大家都在向前走，我們向後退是，一切又都再次錯過了。這不合理。

Nothing is impossible in Thailand. But I would think that it won't go back. We can't go back because everywhere else is moving forward as well. So if we decide to go back after people move forward we're going to miss out again. So it doesn't make sense. Doesn't make sense.

你認為大麻合法化對社會的影響是什麼？

And what impact do you think the current legalization on the society?

我感覺大麻和大麻相關產品直觀上看起來在生意上不觀的合理，因為它們讓人們更少的消費。

I feel that the reason that cannabis and hemp which is part of cannabis to me it's the same thing. The reason that it did not make feasible sense in business is because it moved people away from consumption.

因為它能滿足人的所有基本需求，從而讓人們遠離了買更多的東西和擁有更多的東西。比如說你用hemp做衣服，做牛仔褲，他會比棉的布料更加持久，所以你會買的更少。如果hemp seed是方便獲得的，它會提供更多的蛋白質，會有更多的植物肉出現。人們會吃更少的肉，更少的消費，更少的污染，更少的麥當勞，更少的牛肉。如果你用大麻作為藥，你會使用更少其他的藥物。你就更健康，你會喝更少的酒，你會慢慢的遠離尼古丁等等那些東西。比如說你用hmp做房子，也會更加的持久，一樣的事情，更少的消費。

So because it answers to all your four basic needs it moves people away from buying more things or having more stuff. Say if you use hemp as a as a clothes say make into jeans it will last you longer than the current cotton. So you buy less. So it doesn't make sense for business. If you make hemp seed available protein, plant based protein like develop into some sort of a plant based meat, people will eat less meat. Which means less consumption. Less forest clearing. Less McDonald's. Maybe still more McDonald's but not the beef. So people consume less. Of the things that pollute us the most which is meat. Growing meat for eating. Cows and chicken all of those are very heavy polluters. And then if you use cannabis as medicine you use other medicine less. It can be used in place of paracetamol. A lot of migraine medication can be replaced with that. And you get out being healthier. You drink less alcohol. You slowly move away from nicotine. All of those things. And then say if you build a house with hemp. It will last you longer. Same thing. Consume less.

所以，對商業邏輯來說似乎是不合理的。大麻的合法化對其他行業的人來說，更可以是可怕的一件事。

如何去經營一個不會源源不斷產生更多需求的東西，如何獲得利益。現在人們每年都想著增長，更多的收入、更多這個那個的.......

Hence it doesn't make sense for business. It doesn't make sense. But that's kind of where I would say what legalization it makes to. It can be scary for other industry owners.

How do you make profit on something that doesn't grow? Right now everyone's thinking about each year you have to have a growth. You have to grow more revenue. More this. More that.

如果讓你的生意運營並且盈利，在不製造更多的增長的前提下，在不銷售更多商品的前提下？

How do you make business sustainable and able to still be profitable without that growth? Without trying to sell more.

這或許會是一個新的世界開始。我們管理世界的一個新的方式，管理社會的一個新的方式。或許也是一個新的接受和發展事物的方式。

That is maybe something that this would lead into. A new way of how we manage the world. A new way of how we manage society. And maybe a new way of how things are accepted or calculated.